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	<title>Comments on: Defining Emergence and Complexity in Video Games</title>
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	<link>http://www.gamedesignideas.com/video-games/gameplay-game-mechanics/defining-emergence-and-complexity-in-video-games.html</link>
	<description>Game Design, Artificial Intelligence, Complex Systems</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.gamedesignideas.com/video-games/gameplay-game-mechanics/defining-emergence-and-complexity-in-video-games.html/comment-page-1#comment-1184</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Mar 2011 03:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamedesignideas.com/?p=191#comment-1184</guid>
		<description>Hello!

[...]
I was delighted to read your article about complexity in video games. I have
desperately tried to find a game that can keep me interested longer than the
time it take to learn recently. I think complexity is a completely ignored
criteria. I mean complexity in the technical sense, not just &quot;complicated&quot;.
I have been aware of the importance of this since taking a great &quot;The
Teaching Company&quot; audio book course in Complexity Theory, which I
highly recommend.

I think the way to go is simple rules, leading to emergent features and
complexity. This way you are never done exploring. The most complex video
game I know of is Pokemon, absurdly enough. I haven&#039;t played it for many
years, but it had all the features: Different kinds of objects, with
different properties, simple rules and high levels of interconnectedness.
That is, 150 pokemon, each with the ability to use 4 of about 25 attacks.
The power of the attacks vary depending on the stats you have given each
pokemon, as well as its type. Attacks can be used in combinations to become
very powerful. These pokemon have an additional property (type/category)
that makes them more or less vulnerable to certain attacks, and a special
ability. In addition, you can have 6 pokemon in combination. They also have
stats divided up in physical attack, special attack, speed, two types of
defence etc. As a result, you have have almost infinitely many combinations
of monsters, opponents, added stats, and attacks, some of which will work
very well, others not. The genius is how simple the underlying rules are.

As a result of these interdependent properties, a whole new categorization
of Pokemon was designated by the community, a great example of emergence.
Instead of balancing your pokemons making each rather strong, rather
powerful, rather fast etc, a few specializations emerged. Certain pokemon
with certain stats and attacks were divided in &quot;sweepers&quot;, &quot;tanks&quot;,
&quot;leechers&quot;, &quot;baton passers&quot; etc. These are combinations of pokemon, attacks,
abilities and types that worked especially well together.  For example,
sweepers is given stats to make him very weak but very fast, he is given
attacks that make him even faster or that are very powerful. Works very well
against any category except from tanks or a faster sweepers. Each category
has advantages and disadvantages, and should be used in combination. These
specialization categories are obviously something that the designers had not
predicted. Despite all this complexity, there is very little problem with
&quot;large&quot; events or unbalanced results that are often feared in complex
systems.

You have infinitely many combinations to explore, so the game never becomes
boring. I think this is why pokemon was extremely popular on gameboy, and
still is after all these years.

Another brilliant and complex game series is Total War. Certain troops with
given properties, some rules (spear kills horse easily, archers kills at
distance, units rout if morale drops etc) and good maneuvering works very
well. as a result, you get a few strategies that works better than others,
f.eg flanking, hammer&amp;sickle etc. These looks very much like the strategies
that generals used historically. Unfortunately the complexity of these game
are much more limited than that of Pokemon, or real warfare, and I got bored
after a few weeks. I think the problem is that there are too little
difference in abilities between different troops, and too little
interconnectedness. Most battles are wars of attrition, and some random
combination of troops is almost as good as any other. You can&#039;t suddenly
discover a whole new combo that deals massive damage after a month, like you
could after years with Pokemon.

Anyway, I read about dwarf fortress and though it was brilliant, but
unfortunately simply too harsh graphically for a designer such as myself to
bare, especially with a very steep learning curve. But I am really hoping
for some (violent/fighting/war) game that involves true complexity soon. If
you have any recommendations, please let me know!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-1184" src="http://www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('1184', 'add', 'www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-1184-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-1184" src="http://www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('1184', 'subtract', 'www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-1184-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p><p>Hello!</p>
<p>[...]<br />
I was delighted to read your article about complexity in video games. I have<br />
desperately tried to find a game that can keep me interested longer than the<br />
time it take to learn recently. I think complexity is a completely ignored<br />
criteria. I mean complexity in the technical sense, not just &#8220;complicated&#8221;.<br />
I have been aware of the importance of this since taking a great &#8220;The<br />
Teaching Company&#8221; audio book course in Complexity Theory, which I<br />
highly recommend.</p>
<p>I think the way to go is simple rules, leading to emergent features and<br />
complexity. This way you are never done exploring. The most complex video<br />
game I know of is Pokemon, absurdly enough. I haven&#8217;t played it for many<br />
years, but it had all the features: Different kinds of objects, with<br />
different properties, simple rules and high levels of interconnectedness.<br />
That is, 150 pokemon, each with the ability to use 4 of about 25 attacks.<br />
The power of the attacks vary depending on the stats you have given each<br />
pokemon, as well as its type. Attacks can be used in combinations to become<br />
very powerful. These pokemon have an additional property (type/category)<br />
that makes them more or less vulnerable to certain attacks, and a special<br />
ability. In addition, you can have 6 pokemon in combination. They also have<br />
stats divided up in physical attack, special attack, speed, two types of<br />
defence etc. As a result, you have have almost infinitely many combinations<br />
of monsters, opponents, added stats, and attacks, some of which will work<br />
very well, others not. The genius is how simple the underlying rules are.</p>
<p>As a result of these interdependent properties, a whole new categorization<br />
of Pokemon was designated by the community, a great example of emergence.<br />
Instead of balancing your pokemons making each rather strong, rather<br />
powerful, rather fast etc, a few specializations emerged. Certain pokemon<br />
with certain stats and attacks were divided in &#8220;sweepers&#8221;, &#8220;tanks&#8221;,<br />
&#8220;leechers&#8221;, &#8220;baton passers&#8221; etc. These are combinations of pokemon, attacks,<br />
abilities and types that worked especially well together.  For example,<br />
sweepers is given stats to make him very weak but very fast, he is given<br />
attacks that make him even faster or that are very powerful. Works very well<br />
against any category except from tanks or a faster sweepers. Each category<br />
has advantages and disadvantages, and should be used in combination. These<br />
specialization categories are obviously something that the designers had not<br />
predicted. Despite all this complexity, there is very little problem with<br />
&#8220;large&#8221; events or unbalanced results that are often feared in complex<br />
systems.</p>
<p>You have infinitely many combinations to explore, so the game never becomes<br />
boring. I think this is why pokemon was extremely popular on gameboy, and<br />
still is after all these years.</p>
<p>Another brilliant and complex game series is Total War. Certain troops with<br />
given properties, some rules (spear kills horse easily, archers kills at<br />
distance, units rout if morale drops etc) and good maneuvering works very<br />
well. as a result, you get a few strategies that works better than others,<br />
f.eg flanking, hammer&amp;sickle etc. These looks very much like the strategies<br />
that generals used historically. Unfortunately the complexity of these game<br />
are much more limited than that of Pokemon, or real warfare, and I got bored<br />
after a few weeks. I think the problem is that there are too little<br />
difference in abilities between different troops, and too little<br />
interconnectedness. Most battles are wars of attrition, and some random<br />
combination of troops is almost as good as any other. You can&#8217;t suddenly<br />
discover a whole new combo that deals massive damage after a month, like you<br />
could after years with Pokemon.</p>
<p>Anyway, I read about dwarf fortress and though it was brilliant, but<br />
unfortunately simply too harsh graphically for a designer such as myself to<br />
bare, especially with a very steep learning curve. But I am really hoping<br />
for some (violent/fighting/war) game that involves true complexity soon. If<br />
you have any recommendations, please let me know!</p>
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		<title>By: ed</title>
		<link>http://www.gamedesignideas.com/video-games/gameplay-game-mechanics/defining-emergence-and-complexity-in-video-games.html/comment-page-1#comment-303</link>
		<dc:creator>ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Sep 2010 05:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamedesignideas.com/?p=191#comment-303</guid>
		<description>great post 
wen i looking for a game i looking for fun 
but i wast aware of this points 
that i, i  too seek in new games the Emergent Gameplay
it guess i wast very aware of this 

&lt;a href=&quot;http://buyxbox360consoles.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; buy xbox 360 consoles &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-303" src="http://www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('303', 'add', 'www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-303-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-303" src="http://www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('303', 'subtract', 'www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-303-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p><p>great post<br />
wen i looking for a game i looking for fun<br />
but i wast aware of this points<br />
that i, i  too seek in new games the Emergent Gameplay<br />
it guess i wast very aware of this </p>
<p><a href="http://buyxbox360consoles.com" rel="nofollow"> buy xbox 360 consoles </a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MarkSpizer</title>
		<link>http://www.gamedesignideas.com/video-games/gameplay-game-mechanics/defining-emergence-and-complexity-in-video-games.html/comment-page-1#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkSpizer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 May 2010 11:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamedesignideas.com/?p=191#comment-68</guid>
		<description>great post as usual!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="up-68" src="http://www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('68', 'add', 'www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" title="Thumb up" /> <span id="karma-68-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</span>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" onmouseover="this.width=this.width*1.3" onmouseout="this.width=this.width/1.2" id="down-68" src="http://www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('68', 'subtract', 'www.gamedesignideas.com/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" title="Thumb down" /> <span id="karma-68-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</span></p><p>great post as usual!</p>
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